[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Slow355 – Best time was 12.67@108mph, 1.80 60ft. That was at Calder. I could match the mph at Heathcote but never hook up. Spin city.

So I spoke to the old man and it’s all systems go – He’s stoked to take the car off my hands.

I’ll probably drive it around a little longer to get more experience with the tuning side of things and let a few other bits fall into place. Then it’s into finalising the suspension and diff on the VN before I start on the driveline.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

OK So I did a bit of a stock take of the garage. It seems I’ve got quite a lot of parts for the 304 to suit boost.

On The Shelf Parts
GT4088 1.34 rear
3 x cranks
A set of resized A9L’s with ARPs (3 x sets of stockers)
Speed Pro 30thou over Dished pistons (A copy of ACL Duralites) – massive ring lands
A set of ACL Race/King Bearings
ARP Head Studs
ARP Main Studs
Cometic MLS Head Gaskets suit 30 over bore
Crane Dual Valve Springs and Retainers
Teflon Stem Seals
Engine Gasket Set
NOS Cam Plate, Cam Bolt, Crank Bolt, Oil Pump Driveshaft and Gear etc etc
A half-finished intake manifold with a forward facing throttle to fit under the bonnet with a larger plenum than bananas.

Parts that can be cannibalised from the VQ
Virgin bore Block with smoothed Valley and reco’d/TK-approved Oil Pump
Mild Port Reco Heads with 2.02″/1.60″ Stainless Valves
Yella Terra RR
High Energy Sump
Turbosmart 1:1 Rising Rate Reg
The fully programmable Delco (suits up to 2bar boost)
80L Tank with E85 Lift Pump
Big Trans cooler with thermostat controlled Fan

Parts I’d need
Cam to suit boost (Thinking 222/224 @ 0.050, 114LSA, .500″ lift)
Lifters
Pushrods
Machining (~$1500)
Injectors to suit E85 (I think I’d need 80lbs)
Some sort of decent, not as noisy as an 044, E85 compatible external pump.
Turbo 400 and convertor.
Trutrak/Torquelock Centre (3.08 gears will be fine I think.)
Intercooler
Wastegate
BOV
Steampipe and Alloy Pipe

The only thing in the “Part I’d need” section that I wouldn’t need if I went LS is the Machining. But I would need the following for an LS Conversion as a minimum:
Mounts
Starter Swap Kit
Engine, accessories, loom and ECU
HPTuners or EFILive (whatever the better one is)
Bigger turbo (GT40 frame is probably too small for LS)

Looks like I’ve convinced myself.
I think I’d need no more than 350rwkw in the VN to get a 10. Considering a stock motor can get 300rwkw fairly easily with a stock cam on 10-12psi, I don’t think this is an unreasonable ask. It will probably be toward the top end of the turbo compressor, however…

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

I’ve essentially wanted a Turbo 8 for about…. 9 years?

Time to actually do something about it I think. ATM I’ve got the VQ, the VN and a station car. Want to pare that down to 1 toy car and a motorbike for commuting.

I do love the 304 and the sound, and I know them back to front, but I’ve got to be realistic on what I can achieve. In an ideal world I’d have a 304 T5 ‘handling’ car, a cranky aspirated 304/355 auto, and a turbo LS. However, that’s not all happening. Pick one. In the current climate, it makes sense to have a quiet car that doesn’t arouse too much suspicion. Nothing hanging out of, or on, the bonnet. Full exhaust. Sensible ride height. Then focus on making it quick.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

So in an unexpected turn of events, I’m kinda thinking of getting rid of this, for a couple of reasons.

1. My old man is about to start building a VQ. I haven’t spoken to him yet, but he was planning on starting from scratch (paint and panel etc.) from 2 cars he has in his yard to make one good one. I was thinking of sorta ‘paying him back’ for the help on my cars over the years by giving him mine (maybe minus a few bits here and there).

2. Whilst the VQ’s paint is pretty good, the interior is starting to show signs of ageing due to UV (trim drying out etc).

3. I’ve reached a point with this car that it really is only an N/A rig. To go faster, I’d need to spend probably 5 grand on a fresh aspirated engine to go maaaybe 1 second quicker down the quarter. The T700 would probably be marginal at that point, so I’d need to put in a 3 speed. Another 2.5k.

4. I started working on this car when I was 19 (12 years ago – yikes). I’ve learnt a lot since then, so there’s lots of little bits (particularly wiring) that really isn’t great. I’d like a fresh start on a blank canvas being able to use what I’ve learnt.

5. I don’t get ‘excited’ to drive it any more. It doesn’t feel at all fast and I’m so used to the way it behaves that I chopped it sideways on Saturday, corrected it no worries all the while sort of going ‘meh’. There should be some passion in your toys.

6. I really want a proper fast car in my lifetime. I’m moving toward other things in my life that I enjoy working on, and having too many projects on the go means I might get two ‘not bad’ cars rather than one ‘I really enjoy this’ car.

So, considering I have to invest a fair bit of coin to go any further with this car, I’m thinking it’s time to make a break on it. I’ll drive this one for a few more months until the rego is due in January. Then probably offer it up to the old man. If fhe doesn’t want it, I’ll strip it down and offer a roller if anyone wants it.

Next step – Get serious on the VN. Heart says turbo 304 (nostalgia). Mind says Turbo LS1.

Mind will probably win. So I’ll flog off all my 304 parts (engines, heads, T5 conversion, any parts the old man doesn’t want etc. etc.) then try and grab an LS, Turbo 400, Trutrak, fab up some manifolds, intake piping and exhaust, maybe a cam kit if I can.

Anyway, none of this will happen in a rush. Lots of financial commitments means it will be a slow process unless I win the lottery. (I’ll laugh at this in a years time when I have no VQ, a non-working VN and a lot of parts missing….)

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Immortality wrote:

A big solid cam would be nice but would need a decent engine to support it…

I think you mis-read my post. I only wanted you to paint the rocker covers, not add a solid cam 

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Do me a solid and paint the rocker covers! 

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

I went out tuning the other night, had some opportunity to give it a decent hit or two.

It feels good at heavy throttle – still some fine tuning of the mixtures to make it a bit more stable, as it varies between 12.3-12.9 under power. Once I get that sorted I’ll just be playing around with mid-range stuff. I’d really like to know what I should be aiming for at light throttle acceleration, like 2400-3200rpm regular street cruising (which is light throttle for me due to throttle bodies and stall size).

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

The 12P software on the delco allows you to make fully customisable maps for each output, so you can have 3D mapping on the output from almost any parameter.

For example, I could setup a 3D Map of RPM vs MAP, or 2D map against Injector Duty Cycle for PWM on a fuel pump.

For use on the thermofans, I can setup a 2D map against coolant temp, or a 3D of Coolant Temp vs Road Speed.

Limited only by your imagination really. The example below was for a guy that wanted to run methanol injection on a boosted engine once it hit 3psi manifold pressure. This is a pretty basic use of it but handy nonetheless.

 

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Thanks Gary. The Tunerpro software is actually really good for free software. They guys at delcohacking have really put some time into making the product. I’m very happy.

Below is a history table from a MAF equipped car (just random off the net) but it gives you an idea of the history tables. So for example, when you drive around it populates the matrix on the table with the values the computer receives at different load points, then averages them out. So I can see at what load points I’m running rich/lean, or when I put a knock sensor in I can find areas where my timing is too aggressive.

I can also have it run using AFRs as there is a target AFR table when it enters closed loop mode, but for inital tuning I’ve got it set to open loop so I’m not chasing my tail. Then the on-going tweaks can be made by the ECU with reference to the Wideband.

Once I get all the fuelling sorted, I’ll play with Accelerator Enrichment, look into tweaking the rev-limit settings, look at enabling lean cruise, then start working with the Flex Outputs. With the software mods I can now hookup 4 of the unused pins to create 4 x PWM outputs. I’m hoping to utilise 2 of them for some ‘smart’ fan outputs on my EL Falcon thermofans. PWM on my 044 would be good also.

I’ve also eliminated the fuel smell due to using cheap braided line by running the hard line and standard hose joiners. I’ve mostly stopped the oil leak as I believe it was puking out the dipstick socket on the sump.

Happy days.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Connected the Wideband to the ECU, works a treat. Logging with this input in now is a very powerful tool. It’s quite easy to see when and where it needs more or less fuel through history tables, running averages etc etc.

Having fun playing around with all the data.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Cool – Will keep this in mind for the VN!

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Numpty question: Can you print them in the same/similar colour plastic to the factory surround? (i.e. soul crushing grey?)

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

OK, I’ve been tinkering here and there with the tune on this.

I now have it idling in a pretty stable manner at 700-750rpm. It actually sounds like it has a non-standard cam in it now! (It’s only been in there for 7 years…)
Target spark advance is 26* at idle, with 50kPa manifold pressure and ~13.5:1 AFR when warmed up. Smells a lot less ‘fuelly’ on idle now as well. Another bonus.

I’ve been working on a timing map that is a lot smoother and more aggressive than stock, which I’ll try running this weekend. Still need to adjust the VE table to suit the engine, as well as link the wideband to the ECU.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

That actually looks pretty awesome.
You must be getting a fair bit of rubbing on the front guards though?
Be very careful cutting off lock stops – if you turn the wheel too far you’ll either bottom out the rack or get steering bind. Essentially you physically won’t be able to turn the wheels back from heavy lock. Not the greatest result.

A better option is to modify the steering arm on the knuckles.  An easy way to do this is to cut and shut the steering arm mounting point, with the big caveat that you weld the cast arm back together properly (i.e. lots of pre heat, correct welding material, and a controlled cool down). Otherwise you’ll crack the arm pretty quickly.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

After consulting with the gurus on delcohacking, it turns out that my idle manifold pressure isn’t really all that unexpected. Still, I’ll have a look at what I can do to make it a bit better.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

Yeah I have to investigate.

Tempted to leave as is until I pull the engine also…. (But I’ve said that about problems I’ve had with the car for many years so don’t expect much).

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

OK Modified ECU is a go. Took the car for its first drive last night with the NVRAM installed. I have an Innovate LC-1 Wideband which I am yet to connect to the ECU (Pin D9?), I’ll have to do this sooner rather than later.

A re-cap – The intake manifold on this car is a VN Group A replica I built about 8 or 9 years ago as my first aluminium project (It doesn’t look great – if I built it again it would look much better!). It runs the same plenum volume as the factory unit with 2 inch longer runners at 44mm dia. (10″ total bellmouth to valve head).

First thing first, it seems as though the way my intake manifold works needs to be looked at. It runs twin 60mm V6 throttles which open simultaneously. The IAC port on the secondary throttle is welded closed, however it seems as though there is still too much airflow getting into the engine as I have ~50KPa at idle. From what I understand I should be aiming for 25-30kPa? I’ll have to look at if there is a vacuum leak also (i suspect there might) as the manifold was not machined after all of the welding.

As such, the car is typically idles around 900-1000rpm with the occasional fluctuation. I want it to be lower than this. I also have the IAC sitting on 3 steps at this time, which suggests to me the IAC is fully closed and is still not able to meet the target idle speed (at 750rpm for now).

The next issue is TPS. With the throttle fully closed it sits on 0% readout (I expected it would have been a couple of %?), and since the throttles actuate simultaneously, it requires stuff all throttle input to move along (2-3%). This hasn’t been an issue for me driving it as i’m used to it, and also the convertor takes up some of the slack, but I would like to change this for both driveability and the fact that (as I understand it) it would mean I’m doing a bit of cruising on the idle table. When rolling into the throttle, I can obtain 90-100kPa with as little as 35-40% TPS. This would also be to do with the actuation of the throttles, as well as the flow of the top end of the engine (heads and intake). This manifold was designed to be run on a much stronger engine, I just never got around to building something better.

I’ve noticed also that I can make wholesale changes on the 20-100kPa VE table and unless I’m getting up it, it makes no difference as far as I can tell to the mixtures. I think this is to do with the above.

So in summary, I’m guessing my best approach would be to look at the throttles, check for vac leaks, hookup the wideband and start logging. Oh, and get more familiar with the tables!

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

I took a couple but for some reason it looks really dirty when using the flash on the phone. So I’ll wait until I roll it outside again.

So I got most of the way there on Friday night to getting the ECU side of it sorted. I have connectivity  between the laptop and the ECU via USB, and made the required hardware mods, but ran out of time to go any further. Real-time dash works as well, which is a good sign. Hopefully I’ll get into it properly soon.

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

OK So got the boot finished last night.

Sourced a replacement boot carpet and trimmed to suit (I got rid of the boot carpet years ago). Re-ran all the wiring for the line lock and fuel pump (new fused relays, lost of heat shrink, split tubing, cable clamps and riv-nuts). Finished mounting the pump and surge with the new base plate and hard lines.

My Delcohacking parts arrived yesterday, so this weekend I’ll hopefully mod the ECU to suit and start causing myself a huge headache in trying to tune the thing

[[TUFFVQ]Participant Melbourne1991 VQ 304 View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 171]

General line of thought was a -10 in the valley and 2 x -10’s on the rocker covers.

Current engine breathes a bit but it was all dunny brush honed by a power drill in my garage, then I don’t even think I file-fit the rings! So I’m not surprised.

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