VR Senator with LSx454

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

cava454 wrote:

I’d just do heads cam and and a nice hyd roller. Or if you wanna step it up a solid roller.

 

So Cav, can you school me up and the pros and cons of hydraulic vs solid to make sure i am right in my thinking?  Is this right;

Hydraulic (current in mine)

• no need to set valve clearances
• no need to change lifters
• no need to change rockers
• has to be less aggressive lift,slope so less potential power
• better suited to street because of less mainenance

Solid

• need to set clearances (how often??)
• would need to go to tie bar lifters
• need to go roller rockers (at least adjustable)
• can go aggressive profile
• more race orientated

Is that about right, has anyone done back to back comparisons and said approx how much more hp solid is worth vs hydraulic?  Given the streeter nature of mine, I would sacrifice power for less expense and maintenance maybe??  I mean seriously if i can get near 700hp/520kw with hydraulic maybe i don’t bother, but maybe I am dreaming?

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Thanks all, well a bit more discussion and research done, sort of developing a plan of attack.  Obviously a little dependent on what I find when I get it apart but sort of imagining it wont be wrecked given ts running etc.

Gong to stay hydraulic, for the type of car it is which is basically a fun streeter I dont think the gain of the solid outweighs the hassle and cost.  Looks like I can make more than enough power for what I want staying hydraulic and it means leaving the valve train pretty much alone.  As it was it was almost enough power anyway.  Not sure yet what the power goal will be, might wait to chat to Higgins about that, but I am thinking around 700hp may be attainable which surely will put me deep into 10 territory, and be a hoot on the street.

Adam from Precision is going to help me out with parts and advice, he is very knowledgeable with LS engines so combined with the knowledge on here of guys like IJ, Cav, Immortality etc I am feeling  a little more confident I can do this rebuild myself.

Adam builds LS engines as a hobby on the side and has all the right tools/gear needed, so we are going to put together a hit list of tools he thinks will be useful to own myself, he has then very kindly offered to lend me the rest that I will really only need once or are expensive to buy.  Kinda feel like that a bit of karma coming back given the help I have offered people during the build when asked for info through FB etc.

Going to get the machine work if needed, like re-bore, crank grinding or whatever done by Milton’s here in Adelaide.  Turns out Adam is good friends with Chris Milton, and coincidentally I bought then engine off Chris right back in the day I started, so he knows me sort of and the engine.

Looks like a 5 though re-bore is possible, certainly piston wise but it depends a little on if the rings are available, if not given how little km’s it will do in its lifetime, even if I have to go a  standard single re-bore its not a big deal.  I will know more about that once I open it up.

And started thinking of if there was anything else I might do whilst its out like maybe manual rack, but given what I am already tackling, and given I am on a budget with having spent a fair bit on the Kombi, going to keep to the engine for now.  Better to spend any cash on that than get distracted on nice to haves, or things I can always do later.

So feeling a little more confident, will know more once I get it out and open hopefully this week end.

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Sounds like ur well on you way. Adam will sort you no doubt. Maybe tell the prick to call me back haha

If you want to keep it close by. Try calling Tony Knight at knight engines. His in SA and will be able to sort you out with heads and a cam grind. He does killer work.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Thats THR yea?

 

edit ; no its not

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by  VRSenator065.

[sands vsParticipant vs commodore View build HERE Member since: March 1, 2015 Posts: 619]

Whats the reason you are thinking of going manual rack?

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Eventually I would like to only as it will give a little more room around the steering shaft, and just removes the reservoir & pump from the bay, and less to go wrong. But its not high on the priority list.

[RennoParticipant Adelaide, SAVN SS | VX SS View build HERE Member since: March 11, 2016 Posts: 119]

VRSenator065 wrote:

Eventually I would like to only as it will give a little more room around the steering shaft, and just removes the reservoir & pump from the bay, and less to go wrong. But its not high on the priority list.

Have you talked to your engineer about this? I’m thinking of going down that route or even electric assisted (astra pump) but need to talk to an engineer first.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

I id mention it once in passing the engineer, from memory, he wasn’t concerned as it didn’t change the safety aspect of the collapsible column etc.  But no nothing in writing.  I actually have a manual VL rack here I bought way back, and also an electric Astra power steering pump I got of IJ.  Trouble with the electric pump is I really dont have anywhere to mount it.

[Judge1 FrazerParticipant new zealand1983 VB LSA MG9 6060 6 speed View build HERE Member since: February 5, 2016 Posts: 775]

Hey Gary the guys from engine master did this comparison on the roller and solid cam I know your not going to solid now but worth a watch

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by  Judge1 Frazer.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Legend, cheers mate, love info like that

[MichaelParticipant VY Calais 383ci GT42 turbo. View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 208]

My old N/A 383ci motor use to breathe a bit. When it got stripped down by my engine builder, he said the bores were glazed (pretty sure thats what he called it). He said that the tuner did a shit job of bedding in the rings.

 

If you get new 6 bolt heads from Higgins. Can you ask him why you need to buy $2000 T&D rockers from him to suit his heads, when you can get them for $1500 anywhere else? haha

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Michael wrote:

My old N/A 383ci motor use to breathe a bit. When it got stripped down by my engine builder, he said the bores were glazed (pretty sure thats what he called it). He said that the tuner did a shit job of bedding in the rings. If you get new 6 bolt heads from Higgins. Can you ask him why you need to buy $2000 T&D rockers from him to suit his heads, when you can get them for $1500 anywhere else? haha

Gary should already have 6 bolt heads lol.

That’s what’s most likely happened. Over fuelled way to early and glazed the bores prior to bedding the rings in.

A power hone and everything back together as is and it should be micky mouse. That’s what I did when I build my ls1.

Power hone, new rings.

I did new bearings also inc cam bearing as they were 160k old.

Same pistons, rods and crank.

Factory mains

arp head bolts

i used ls3 rod bolts

cam with all arp cam gear.

adj chain so I could dial it in

Arp balancer bolt

[MichaelParticipant VY Calais 383ci GT42 turbo. View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 208]

Yep. I forgot to mention that they said it would’ve been overfueled.

 

And yes I just double checked the lsx454 and it does have 6 bolt heads.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Project “Beyond 700HP” is in full swing

Well got it out and partially torn down over the weekend,  was actually a very time consuming job pulling it out, working on my own.  Not hard just very time consuming with everything.  Doesn’t help I am paranoid about scratching the paint etc.  Pulled it out by dropping the sub frame, never done it like that before, was maybe a little easier but not sure by a massive amount.  No way the headers on mine will go out by the chassis rails so it means pulling them out first, which anyone with an LS swap will know is a pita!!  I ended up removing the heads while it was in the car.

So it turns out the head gaskets are blown between every cylinder bar one, I have no idea why.  The bores and bearing journals looks good to the naked eye, no signs of any heat or wear, but I haven’t measured anything yet.  I am really thinking it just wasn’t run in right, the wrong injectors, the tune etc etc.

What I have noticed is that the pistons are so loose in the bores.  I mean before I pulled it apart I could rock the piston side to side by what felt like half a millimeter.  Now I dont know what its supposed to be, I do appreciate forged pistons run more clearance, and as I say I haven’t measured it, but it just doesn’t look right to me. New pistons will sort that, at least i will know that’s perfect.

Also nice when I drained the oil in the glide, its like the day it was put in, perfect;ly clean and sweet smelling, so pretty sure its behaving exactly as I had hoped.  Also tail-shaft feels spot on,pretty much everyhting looks and feels like it should.

So I reckon at this stage its not too bad, so a new set of pistons sized right, maybe a re-bore to suit depending on how it measures, and I might be lucky and just new bearing shells, tickled heads, new cam, and should see north of 700hp at the fly.

I have also decided to work with the engine builder Brenton Marrusic who works for himself but also runs the engine dyno at THR Developments here in SA.  I have spoken to him a few times via FB and he seems to know his stuff.  I rang and spoke to him Saturday and I like him.  He also knows Adam Wickson at Precision very well, so between the three of us we can get everything sorted.

I am going to get him to do my heads and a custom cam.  I will then build the engine myself, then give it to him and he will spend some time with it on the engine dyno making sure its all perfect but also tuning it.  That way I will know its good before I put it back in the car and also he will know whats in it.

So aim to have it totally torn down this weekend, then off to Brenton to look at the block and re-bore it if needed.  Adams speccing up a kit of parts, looks like CP pistons are the go as Mahle dont make them in the size I need. All systems go

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• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by  VRSenator065.

[ImmortalityParticipant 97 HSV Senator 185i 02 VX L67 Calais View build HERE Member since: August 31, 2015 Posts: 535]

Really need to check it at the top of the bore without rings fitted or better yet measure the bore and the piston at a specific point as they won’t be round when cold and calculate actual clearance.

Blown gaskets like that I would suggest was probably a tuning issue.  Bugger ehh

How do the bores look?

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

That is at the top with the rings removed, but yea will do.  Yea I reckon the gasket is tuning.  I really dont think its been right for a while.  Bores look good actually, but nothing is measured yet.  Ant doubt at all will bore it, even if I just go 5 thou, then I will have it all re honed and pretty much start off like a new engine again.  But this time run and broken in on the dyno and tuned properly.

[Anonymous View build HERE Member since: January 1, 1970 Posts: 0]

Something going on with the tune for sure to torch the gasket like that… 

[Judge1 FrazerParticipant new zealand1983 VB LSA MG9 6060 6 speed View build HERE Member since: February 5, 2016 Posts: 775]

this sucks you spend the money on a really good engine just to have some absolute cock screw it

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

You will Ben suprised how loose the pistons are. My stock ones were the same in my ls1.

 

With the rings in and the piston the right way its not to bad. Don’t forget it only rocks once the rock is conncted. It won’t slap around

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Yea gotta say though Cav, I first rocked it before I pulled them out with the rings etc on them, it like seriously was rocking and making a huge knocking sound like a boss. And it was top bottom or middle of the bore, prob should have videoed it.   But I admit I have no experience with forged pistons, Will suss it all out properly once its all torn down and cleaned up.

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