VR Senator with LSx454

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

vs manta 218 wrote:

..that would be a awesome way to do it as its load detected so the pump doesn’t go flat out while goin back gears as a rpm switch would

 

Yep exactly, so its basically matching the pump performance to the actual fuel demand, which is basically ideal.  As you say if you are doing 5,000 rpm on a downshift blip it needs next to no fuel, whereas passing through 5,000 under wot it needs full flow. Such an interesting subject, I mean basically we are able to put JDM “trickery” into our cars now.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

An idea I had way back way to build a gizmo that compared the front ABS speed reading to the rear to measure rear wheel spin in real time.  Then feed that to a NOS controller.  So you can dial in the rate of NOS and limit the wheel spin to whatever you want, or as the track allows.

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Have it WOT activated. The ecu can pull timing once it’s activated and then run it off a hobs switch

Would be a fogger setup drilled into each runner.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by  cava454.

[benkParticipant Sydney View build HERE Member since: August 23, 2015 Posts: 85]

vs manta 218 wrote:

I’m not sure I know with the older holden delco ECU it can be done by the power economy button and kalmaker do provide for lots of stuff such as water meth activation, pretty sure you can tune in 2 different tunes using the power economy some how so one with normal timing and one with certain timing pulled out I would imagine there would have to be a way of doin it as lots of LS powered cars have NOS i have EFI live so I would just go in and select every thing above a certain rpm like 3500 as I know when I change gears I’m still above that or if you have a auto just take it from just above the converters rpm and just take out the desired timing for HP of nos, as above its 4 degrees for 100hp and 6 for 150hp (not sure above this HP though) but it all comes on the sheet when you buy a kit best of talking to a tuner about that as different tuning programs can be set up different so it’s not just 1 way of doin it and that will work with efi live, HP tuners and ls1 edit each program may or may not require a different wiring pin to ECU for some sort of activation switch to know to pull timing out

EFILive have a custom operating system for the LS1 PCM that has a NOS function, you wire up to a spare pin on the PCM and when it is activated the PCM switches to NOS fuelling and spark table.

[benkParticipant Sydney View build HERE Member since: August 23, 2015 Posts: 85]

VRSenator065 wrote:

vs manta 218 wrote:

..that would be a awesome way to do it as its load detected so the pump doesn’t go flat out while goin back gears as a rpm switch would

Yep exactly, so its basically matching the pump performance to the actual fuel demand, which is basically ideal. As you say if you are doing 5,000 rpm on a downshift blip it needs next to no fuel, whereas passing through 5,000 under wot it needs full flow. Such an interesting subject, I mean basically we are able to put JDM “trickery” into our cars now.

The Delco PCMs in the supercharger v6 commodores run a fuel pump controller. The PCM changes the fuel pump speed based on fuel demand so its not always running full tilt. I think the VU LS1 ute also had one

[sands vsParticipant vs commodore View build HERE Member since: March 1, 2015 Posts: 619]

benk wrote:

The Delco PCMs in the supercharger v6 commodores run a fuel pump controller. The PCM changes the fuel pump speed based on fuel demand so its not always running full tilt. I think the VU LS1 ute also had one

 

 

 

Basic Fuel system operation(Info for vs models)

The fuel control system starts with the fuel in the fuel tank. A single in-tank high pressure fuel pump is used. From the high prerssure pump, fuel flows through a fuel filter, then on to the engine fuel rail through the fuel pressure supply line.

The high pressure in-tank single pump is capable of providing fuel at more that 575kPa. A pressure regulator connects between the fuel rail and the return fuel line, and keeps fuel available to the injectors at a regulated pressure between 235 and 320 kpa.

The regulated pressure will vary, depending on inlet manifold pressure. The pressure regulator senses manifold pressure through a small hose connecting it to the throttle body adapter. When throttle body adaper pressure is low (closed-throttle), the regulated pressure is at its lowest. When the throttle is wide open, inlet maifold pressure is high and the fuel pressure is at its highest.

Fuel in excess of injector needs is returned to the fuel tank by a seperate fuel line connected to the outlet of the pressure regulator.

The injectors, loacted the inlet ports of the cylinder heads, are controlled by the PCM. They deliver fuel in one of several modes as described previously.

The fuel pump is normally energised by the PCM via the pump relay. As a back-up the fuel pump can be energised directly by the oil pressure switch after the engine oil lubrication system comes up to operating pressure.

FUEL PUMP:A specific fuel pump is used for vehicles with a supercharged v6 engine. The pump is a roller vane type pump whereas the pump used on the non-supercharged vehicles is a turbine style pump. Identification of the pump fuel for the supercharged engine over the pump used for non-supercharged vehicles is by referring to the overall diameter of the pump body. For the supercharged application the pump body overall diameter is approximately 37mm, with the fuel pump for non-supercharged engine application being approximately 44mm.

Fuel Pump electrical circuit-supercharged engine: When the ignition switch is turned “ON” or the ‘crank’ after having been “OFF” for at least 10 seconds, the PCM will imediately eneregise the fuel pump relay which will then activate the Fuel Pump Control Control Module to operate the fuel pump. This builds up the fuel pressure quickly. If the engine is not cranked within two seconds, the pcm will shut the fuel pump relay “OFF” and wait until the engine is cranked. As soon as the engine begins cranking cranking, the PCM will sense the engine turning from the crankshaft rewference input, and turn the relay “ON” again to run the fuel pump.

Fuel Pump control module:
The v6 supercharged engine utalises a Fuel Pump Control Module to operate the pump at two speeds. The Fuel Pump Control Module is located in the rear compartment. The Fuel Pump Control Module can vary the fuel pump output depending on the required engine load. When the ignition is first turned “ON”, the PCM energises the fuel pump relay which applies power to the Fuel Pump Control Module. The fuel pump will then pressurise the fuel system. The purpose for the Fuel Pump Control Module is that the fuel system for the supercharged engine requires more fuel volume under heavy load conditions then the non-supercharged engine. The fuel pump used in the non-supercharged engine may be capable of supplying the required fuel volume for a supercharged engine system , but with the increased fuel volume required, the non-supercharged engine fuel pump would eventually fail from running at the higher fuel volume. The supercharged engine fuel pump is a two stage pump that, under normal driving xconditions the required fuel volume is less, so the fuel pump is run at a lower duty cycle(67%). When a higher engine load is required for this system , the Fuel Pump Control Module will switch from the normal duty cycle to a higher duty cycle (100%) based on a command from the PCM. This higher duty cycle will supply the required fuel volume under heavy engine loads.

Another feature of this Fuel Pump Control Module is that when the pump is running at the lower duty cycle, (normal driving conditions), the returned fuel to the fuel tank (from the pressure regulator) is less. This lower volume of returned fuel to the fuel tank will in lower emissions(fuel tank vapours).

Also with the fuel pump running at a lower duty cycle (normal driving conditions), the voltage output requred to run the pump is lower. This will require less generator output and will decrease overall vehicle fuel usage.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by  sands vs.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by  sands vs.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

^great info guys

[WraithParticipant View build HERE Member since: March 2, 2015 Posts: 50]

Some of the Toyota turbos do that but in a pretty rudimentary fashion. WOT = full 12 volts to the fuel pump anything else is I think 7 volts so the fuel pump isn’t running flat out. Can cause issues with more boost though going from part throttle to WOT so a common mod is to wire it to full 12 volt all the time.

PWM fuel pump control is pretty nifty though.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by  Wraith.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

yea my pwm controller is a great piece of kit, I just need to get around to getting it hooked up properly

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by  VRSenator065.

[Anonymous View build HERE Member since: January 1, 1970 Posts: 0]

I have 2 in mine  :XD:

Started doing it that way back in my Turbo Supra days, noticed after an hours cruise the fuel tank was damn hot to touch due to the 2x 044’s recirculating ALL of the fuel through the rail and engine bay…

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Yep, thats the go, and of course they are nice and quiet when cruising, the pumps have longer life as they are not running flat out all the time as well.

[Anonymous View build HERE Member since: January 1, 1970 Posts: 0]

Yeah lots of benefits, I use mine to stage the Pressure pumps, 1 pump is adequate to run my engine but for peace of mind I always double up after burning an engine down…

I also run the output of the #1 PWM driver to a solid state relay and that drives the lift pump which saves buying a 3rd driver… (damn things aren’t cheap)

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Interesting about two main pumps for redundancy.  I am of the opinion its better to run one as if it fails the engine stops, but if you have two and one dies it will still run so maybe lean out (not good)  But am i right you run a pair that individually will supply enough flow?  If so that makes more sense to me.

[Anonymous View build HERE Member since: January 1, 1970 Posts: 0]

Yep each of my pumps can run the engine, have had a pump lay down in the past under boost, wasn’t pretty..

Piston with a sun roof..

[benkParticipant Sydney View build HERE Member since: August 23, 2015 Posts: 85]

VRSenator065 wrote:

yea my pwm controller is a great piece of kit, I just need to get around to getting it hooked up properly

Which controller are you using?

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

benk wrote:

VRSenator065 wrote:

yea my pwm controller is a great piece of kit, I just need to get around to getting it hooked up properly

Which controller are you using?

My controller came with the Wedlon kit I bought, so its a system designed to work together.  I have the controller mounted in the boot with the over ride switch and adjuster in there too.  I may have a picture of the set up will have a look but this was the kit.

[Anonymous View build HERE Member since: January 1, 1970 Posts: 0]

How loud is the pump without the controller?

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

Its reasonably loud, hard to describe, when your driving along you can hear it but not massively.  That pump has enough flow for 1,000HP with E85 all day long, so its way overkill flat out for what I have now (I have never been accused of under kill though  )

[cava454Moderator 93 VR BT1 View build HERE Member since: February 20, 2015 Posts: 2 390]

Nice pump that. I’m more of a 2 pump guy with a Hobbs fuel pressure switch to kill the engine, just incase a pump dies.

[VRSenator065Participant Adelaide SAVR Senator LSx454 1960 Kombi (project) 1921 Nash Hot Rod (future project) View build HERE Member since: February 17, 2015 Posts: 5 777]

cava454 wrote:

Nice pump that. I’m more of a 2 pump guy with a Hobbs fuel pressure switch to kill the engine, just incase a pump dies.

A lot of thought went into the whole fuel set up, its a great pump.  I like the idea of the fuel pressure switch, maybe not on a road car though, any chance of it doing something funky as your pulling into traffic?

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